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« Two possible futures and one that is impossible | Main | Well, aren't you special? »

November 16, 2008

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Sudeep Bhaumick

even i hope that the (so called) doomers, that would be including mi, have gotten it really wrong and that the defect lies in our perception of the world around us.

but as you said the evidence is pointing in the other direction.

it is so frustrating when it comes to convincing loved ones. some who do not understand and some who do not want to...

another beautiful post...

George Mobus

Thank you Sudeep.

I do not really think of myself as a 'dooomer' except with regard to the current consumption-based economy and the sub-sapient forms of governance that prevail in the world. Those are doomed. Unfortunately I suspect there will be much suffering in the process. Some people who, as you point out, are unwilling to recognize reality, will be doomed.

But I am quite hopeful for humanity in general. What we are facing is a challenge and I suspect an evolutionary opportunity. I still dream of a more sapient species.

George

Lutrinae

Great blog...
Do you consider geo-engineering to reduce warming be an option? How would you work it into your plan?
Thanks.

George Mobus

Lutrinae,

Thanks for the comment.

Geo-engineering scares me a bit. First, I have difficulty calling the idea engineering since that term implies one knows what one is doing. Clearly, insofar as the modification of Earth climate, we really don't know what to expect from attempts, say, to mitigate global warming by interfering with the influx of solar energy. There is no historical practice of actual engineering (except possibly for dams, and other hydrological projects) with known results. Anything we do now would be experimental and pre-knowledge of consequences (unintended or otherwise) doesn't exist.

In my mind the only sensible thing to do is cut way back on carbon-based fuels and soon. Humans lived a long time without giant machines to do their bidding (and a really long time without SUVs). We know we can do that again. What we don't know is what dispersing large quantities of sulfuric acid in the troposphere would do, aside from possibly increasing the albedo a bit.

George

Florifulgurator

"the real cause of the suddenness and extent of the meltdown, the decline in net energy available to the economies of the world"

Hmm. I'm not so sure. OK, gas prices perhaps kicked that first domino (GM rating downgraded). But any other domino in the interknit chains of CDOs of CDOs would have done. Those "weapons of financial mass destruction" (Warren Buffet 2003) have been waiting to blow up since before peak oil. The energy problem (peak oil) will get crucial later on.

Anyhow, we (global biosystem) are quite lucky that Homo S "Sapiens" hit the wall with financial industry, i.e. crashed into abstract stuff, instead of hitting biophysical limits. So, some breathing space we got. And suddenly there's some open ears and minds to look at the really scary stuff (e.g. ponder your magnificient writings). Oh the luck! Do worry, but be happy.

Florifulgurator

On geo-engineering:
There is one promising carbon sequestration thing, char coal:
Pyrolize dead (and soon to decompose) carbon-rich biomass, thus harvesting some energy while also fixing some carbon that would otherwise return to the atmosphere as CO2 by decomposition. Bury (not burn) that char coal. It is very beneficial in agriculture (cf. "terra preta"). It will stay in the soil for centuries.

Problem perhaps is, it's not space-agey enough to attract Homo S "Sapiens" tech fetishism. Also, it looks movements like Vandana Shiva's aren't really aware of it yet.

I'm waiting for the wood gas hybrid car, so I can drive carbon negative...

Sukhbir  Dadwal

As far ad debt goes, I believe we need change in our formal education. You posted some very interesting ideas in your blog posts about our education system and how we need to train students to be more than just 'specialists' in a specific area.

I've been a student ever since I moved to this country in 1994.
All the classes I have taken have to do with either preparing me for college or work (and learn English).
I would say I'm one of the lucky ones, due to the fact that I wanted to pursue an engineering major, I was forced to take Physics and Calculus. I believe those (any maybe 1 or 2 more) classes are the only ones I took which help me think analytically about my environment, and thus going beyond just job training.

Other than that everything other class had to do with preparing me for a specific job. Which leads me to my point. Students all over this country are going into huge amounts of debt because of our education system.

In our current system, students borrow money to go to school and banks give them money because everybody assumes that there is always going to be growth and most students are going to get a job in their special field, be able to make lots of money, pay back the debt and make a living all at the same time. I too have fallen into this cycle. Even though I've worked while going to Community College and the University, I had to borrow money from the government (in the form of Fin. Aid student loans) to pay for some of my undergraduate education.

This is not right, as most readers of this blog would agree, growth is not infinite.

A better way would be to treat students as 'maintainers' of future sustainability instead of trained experts in a specialized field. And any investment made in the student's education should be based on the fact that the students education will help sustain society in the future and benefit everybody. This also means the costs of education have to come down and they have to be based on realistic assumptions not the job market of the future.

George Mobus

Hi Florifulgurator.

What I meant by 'cause' is that the bubble of just about everything (prices and debt) had been artificially pumped up beyond the capacity for the flow of energy to be used for real work to sustain it. Once one part of the bubble, i.e. the housing piece with sub-prime mortgages following close behind started to collapse it brought everything down with it - the veritable house of cards of the economy. The housing crisis was, perhaps, the triggering event. But the underlying cause of the problem was the building that house of cards as if there would be adequate energy flow in the future to keep it up. When the combination of flat oil production and declining EROI hit a critical point, the whole thing imploded.

This is almost completely opaque to classical economics which treats energy as just another commodity. This is one of the reasons that dollar prices for energy are now pretty much meaningless. The price signals are not really telling us a whole lot until you realize that it is energy flow and not money flow per se that is the real currency of the economy.

I've been trying to work out the relationships in several past blogs. There are a lot of assumptions taken for granted in this one that were dealt with in previous blogs.

George

George Mobus

Sukhbir,

Great insight. The one thing I agreed with my long-ago economics professor on was the idea that education should be free to anyone who wants to (and has the intellectual horsepower) pursue it - similar to the European model in many places.

Education is a societal investment that has huge payoffs, if done right, in terms of creating better informed and reasoning citizen leaders. Of course we have perverted the real purpose of education to be about job skills and measure the payoff in jobs with good wages. And the 'free market' version of financing education is pathetic.

But see, our incredibly informed citizenry can only complain about the 'heavy' tax burden they have to suffer. Poor dears. We don't want to tax them anymore to support education. Let them keep their money so they can buy big screen TVs.

George

David Ocampo G

Your readiness to dispense with representative democracy gives me the feeling that I need to find a throne (non-royal!) to sit on. "Sapient governance with a council of [the] wise" was attractive to Plato and Thomas Carlysle (inter al.), but the results have been uniformly dystopian. The "Great Man" theory keeps coming back, like the smoke from a campfire that one can't escape, no matter where he sits.

Two "Great Man" types at present are Fidel Castro and Hugo Chávez. I know some folks in our country see them as Great Man material (or actuality). But those of us who have grown up or lived extensively in countries so ruled recognize the dystopias they are.

Plato had ideas on how to grow Sapient Leaders. Carlysle appears to have believed Sapient Leaders (who also happen to be STRONG and MANLY) pop out of the woodwork when needed.

You suggest something like DNA blood tests (O Brave New World!) to sort folks on the basis of brains. But so much ill has been done by folks of great intellect. Virtue and saintliness, perhaps? Sir (or Saint) Thomas More, and the uncanonized but even saintlier Thomas Cranmer, both sent many people to torture and to be burned at the stake.

But I love your proposals! You are proposing some real courses of action. All I have done is find fault.

George Mobus

David,

I suggest you read the series on sapience a bit more closely. There are some important differences between what I am talking about and what you describe from history. Wisdom is not necessarily greatness. But I acknowledge your sentiment of caution. All of the things I suggest are hypotheses to be tested. Not to be followed blindly.

George

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