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« Is there a role for elitism in higher education (again)? | Main | Just in case the world doesn't come to an end too quickly... »

January 26, 2011

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Ron Smith

Regarding the future of evolution.
We have already created a 'new kind' of evolution with the breeding of domesticated species of plants and animals. The selection process acting on these species is far removed from the natural seletion of the wild. It can even be argued that we have already carried out, to a lesser extent, the same process on ourselves. The physiological differences between modern man and Cro Magnon, though very slight, are vey similar to the changes seen when comparing domesticated animals with their wild ancestors. Thinning skulls, reduced robustness, etc.
The deliberate selection of attributes in humans would be nothing new.

George Mobus

Ron,

...the preference [..] for Big Picture questions is simply the result of 'taste', by which I mean genetic predispositions to find some kinds of problems more interesting than others.

I don't know if you realize it but you just put your finger on one of the aspects of sapience that differentiates it from mere cleverness. Later when you remark on emotional moderation you do it again!

I don't know what works you have been reading on sapience. If it is just the stuff I've written in a few blogs, then I can see that you could not find a clear definition. My working papers, at: http://faculty.washington.edu/gmobus/Background/seriesIndex.html provides a much more comprehensive perspective. I have gathered a good deal more information that I will be incorporating in them in the near future. But for now they represent fairly the hypothesis of sapience (brain basis -- genetics and development) and wisdom per se.

George

George Mobus

Ron (2),

This is true. Setting ourselves up for the future selection of higher sapience would merely be an extension of processes in which we have already been engaged.

George

Ron Smith

"I don't know if you realize it but you just put your finger on one of the aspects of sapience that differentiates it from mere cleverness. Later when you remark on emotional moderation you do it again!"


OK, in that case I can understand Sapience in terms of somewhat different motivations and behaviors resulting from somewhat different brain structure.

However I would still be reluctant to classify someone with higher Sapience as being in any way superior, or more desirable, or more likely to survive in harsh circumstances, compared to someone who is not as Sapient but possesses the same reasoning capacity.

I need to read more of your working paper to really decide if I meet your criteria for being more Sapient than most. However if I assume for the moment that I am I would argue that a community that consists primarily of people like myself might be at a serious disadvantage in a 'bottle neck' future scenario. I would probably really like living in such a community, we would probably have some amazing discussions and exciting debates, but honestly I doubt we would get much done. We would come up with brilliant long term strategies, but when it came to the day to day drudgery of carrying out those plans we would probably bog down in overanalyzing and rethinking every little detail, or at the other extreme we would lack sufficient interest in the details to pay them proper attention. At least I am describing the difficulties I experience in my life.

I would think a community, and by extension the human race, needs a balance. It needs some people who are good at long range planning, some who are good at short range planning, some who are good at consensus building, some who are good at organizing tasks, etc., etc.

My view is that wisdom, which is really just being good at long range strategic thinking, is not something that one has in addition to other abilities, rather that it is a matter of focusing one's reasoning ability on such tasks.

As an analogy think about cars. You can put a car in Neutral, 1st, 2nd, Reverse, and other gears. Each gear has an appropriate use. Different cars may be designed to be most efficient in different gears, but what really determines the cars performance is how powerful the engine is.

In my analogy I would claim Wisdom is one of the gear choices (Sleep, Wisdom, Work, Avarice, and others). The engine is the reasoning capacity. Some people might be particularly good at strategic long range planning, that is their design is optimized for working in that gear. However these same people will be much less efficient in other gears, (I function extremely poorly when in the Avarice gear), so there is no overall advantage to being wise by itself, though it is certainly advantageous for a society to have some wise people around.

I would further claim that the human species has generally found an extremely successful balance of people who are prone to specializing in different 'gears' and changing that balance that has evolved over millions of years might not be a good idea, or at least would require very careful consideration.

However I would also claim that we definitely need better engines, that is to say that everyone, and the species as a whole, would benifit if we all had better general intelligence, reasoning capacity, or whatever you choose to call it.

Perhaps the Brodmann Area 10 is the brain's equivalent to the gearbox?

Matt Holbert

Ron,

Following up on...

I would think a community, and by extension the human race, needs a balance. It needs some people who are good at long range planning, some who are good at short range planning, some who are good at consensus building, some who are good at organizing tasks, etc., etc.

I've spent quite a bit of time over the past ten years thinking about this. While I don't disagree with the above statement, I do think that regardless of where our strengths lie, most of us will be healthier and happier if we do some physical work for part of the day. Gardening, etc. I think that our days will be diversified. I think that there will be fewer boundaries between work and play than there are now. Sapience will likely be an unpaid position and that is a good thing. Pay would attract the clever...

Matt Holbert

George-

A technical note...I was unable to post to your blog on a Mozilla browser but had success with Safari...

Ron Smith

Matt:
I for one do my own gardening, and try to diversify my other activities as well. However I'm not a great gardener, and I sure would like it if one of my neighbors were a Master Gardener that I could get advice from. Diversification and specialization are both needed.

Wise poeple need to eat too, so if you want someone to devote themselves to learning to be wise they need to be reasonably likely to make a living at it. Even if one is predisposed to such activities poverty and starvation are significant barriers.

George Mobus

Ron,

You said:

However I would still be reluctant to classify someone with higher Sapience as being in any way superior, or more desirable, or more likely to survive in harsh circumstances, compared to someone who is not as Sapient but possesses the same reasoning capacity

I hope you are able to find the answer in the working papers. Briefly sapience is about superior judgment (morally motivated). We humans are plagued with a number of built in systematic biases, which, according to Kahneman and Tversky, are due to our brains operating on some basic heuristics. These biases show up routinely in real-time judgments, those subconscious, intuitive, thoughts that help shape our decisions. Rationality plays a minor role in decision processing, as it turns out. Our decisions are influenced more by emotions (Damasio) and judgments (above authors). The latter is the newest brain mechanism for shaping decisions based on experience rather than evolutionarily encoded reactions (emotions). And the efficacy of this newer system is based on the amount of neural computational power available. The heuristics I mentioned are evolutionary shortcuts that allow for speedy decisions. Contemplation, on the other hand, depends on having time to make a decision.

We humans evolved a more advanced capacity for deeper (longer time scale) judgments but only just barely. The brain basis for this form of processing is actually spread over different regions, mostly in the prefrontal cortex, but appears to be coordinated from BA10.

Your focus on desirability, or other traits ignores the very factor that made humans so much more fit in the first place, the ability to improve judgments as a result of living life and gaining experience. This latter aspect is what makes wisdom out of sapience. Our cartoonish vision of cavemen being brutish, or fierce hunters attracting more mates is not even close.

I need to read more of your working paper to really decide if I meet your criteria for being more Sapient than most.

There is a proverb that says something like: if you think you are wise then you are obviously not!

My advice is look for sapience in others' behaviors. Until such time as objective, quantitative measures of sapience are available, e.g. the size and density of BA10 relative to other patches, it is useless to speculate on one's own level.

In the follow up to Matt:

Wise poeple need to eat too, so if you want someone to devote themselves to learning to be wise they need to be reasonably likely to make a living at it.
I think you are looking at this very wrongly. One doesn't attempt to 'learn' to be wise. One grows into wisdom by virtue of their life experiences, which include all manner of work, play, loving, and even, perhaps, fighting. I think you may have taken far too narrow a view of wisdom and by doing so too narrow an opinion re: sapience.

I will let my working papers address the other points you made.

----------------------------

Matt,

Well said.

I passed the message on to the typepad team. I use Firefox and have not had any problems in general. However, every once in a while some glitch turns up so it hasn't been problem free. I know they are constantly trying to introduce new features so I expect that is where the problems come from. If you can try again and let me know if you continue to have problems (maybe include an error message - they always ask me for those).

Regards

George

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