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July 16, 2008

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Trinifar

Greg, I like where you are going with this so I want more information. The critical question to me when it comes to governance, one that precedes what you describe above, is "Who gets to tell who what to do and how do they get those positions?"

Even if we have the monetary system you describe we're still potentially in the situation where people with lots of money have more political influence than those with less, and, like today, the more influential may choose to sway things toward their own short-term goals to the detriment of society as a whole. That needs fixing.

George Mobus

Exactly the kind of question we need to be asking to explore this domain!

The description I've provided is simply a framework derived from observation of the natural evolution of complex systems. Human society is still at an early stage of evolution with respect to higher-order governance. Even so, many mechanisms that fit into the hierarchical control model can be found operating to one degree or another. So I suspect we are in the midst of evolving a more comprehensive and strategically oriented governance. My thought is that, recognizing where we are going we might be able to speed things up with an intentional design based on what amounts to a kind of biomimicry. Our governance will end up being an artifact, but one based on nature's design.

What I didn't take up in the above post is the role of culture, specifically things like religion, mores, and such, in the framework. I want to come back to those soon, but regard much of that in the same light as markets. The marketplace of ideas and ideologies as opposed to products and services. I'd like to understand better how they fit into the hierarchical control framework.

But the question you address is critical to progress in this notion. I will be spelling out more detail in future posts, at least what I have come up with so far. The short version is that it isn't a 'who' that gets to decide, but the model from nature. The question revolves around how the strategic level is formulated (I think Herman Daly and the Ecological Economics guys have done a masterful job of outlining the 'what-to-do' at the coordination level such that policies put forth there have a test of efficacy already in place). I think there are models of strategic management that are applicable, but the overall outline is still sketchy.

As far as the 'people with lots of money' being in charge, that is where we have to radically alter the whole concept of capitalism. There does need to be aggregation of liquid capital (the same thing as concentrating energy) in order to do useful work. So careful attention needs to be put on how that capital is acquired and managed. The current system is full of examples of loopholes and abuses of power, so I should think we work from there to design methods of concentration that do not involve individual aggrandizement and at the same time does not smack of planned economies . You are absolutely right - the power grabbing and cheating needs fixing.

I hope you will continue to provide input into these ideas. Questions are great, all ideas open for discussion.

George

Trinifar

My last comment got lost. Probably just operator error. In short: Sorry for the Greg/George confusion above. Had just visited Greg Laden's blog.

A question to add to your future thinking on this topic: How do we transition from one system to another? Software developers face this all the time. Given current system X and desired system Y, how do you implement a series of changes to get from X to Y? The monetary system changes seem at least conceivable, but the changes in governance itself not so much aside from violent revolution which we want of course to avoid. Still, there are some existing models like what happened in Russia, East Germany, Poland and other regions in the breakup of the Soviet Union.

Wayne Hamilton

George, seems I came into your play just as it's getting exciting. Looks reasonable so far, but I'll think more and get back to you. Things I like are: energy-equivalent currency and conservation of all resources (with small meteorites an unexpected bonus at times). I need to think more about the internal structure.

George Mobus

Trin and Wayne, both!

Thanks for the engagement.

Trin, your questions are great. I am working on a post that will address, in some way, the question of transition. I see a couple of possible scenarios. But I should say that I put a lot of hope into the Global
Sensemaking effort to prove my prognostications wrong. This exercise is sort of the backup plan or, as I have discussed it in other venues, a Plan Z, as it were.

Wayne, and everyone who might be following this discussion...

Re: internal structure. The model I alluded to in the post for coordination-level management, ecological economics, can best be understood from Costanza, et al.

Robert Costanza, John H Cumberland, Herman Daly, Robert Goodland, Richard B Norgaard, (1997). An Introduction to Ecological Economics, CRC Press. ISBN-10: 1884015727

My colleague Mike Kalton and I are developing a curriculum for a BA/BS in systems science at UWT. This text will be one used in the core.

With gratitude,

George

Wayne Hamilton

"Corporate industrialism, profit-motivated capitalism, and exponential development of science and technology (which makes complexity, well, complex!) have given the gamers an edge."
That line gave me the creeps. Hadn't thought it through on my own, but it sure fits the available data.

George Mobus

It's all evolution!

George

Wayne Hamilton

Seem to recall ca. late 70s a Nobel prize in economics to some US guy describing equilibrium state in an economy; including energy flow.
Have been trying for a couple years to rediscover his name. Now looking at James Tobin 1981...one possibility. Does this ring a bell?

George Mobus

Wayne,

Vaguely. But I think he was a Keynesian proponent.

I don't know about equilibrium including energy flow, but steady state and energy has been the ken of the ecological economists. Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen was the big name in the 70s but I don't think he was a Nobelist (should have been!)

George

Wayne Hamilton

Perhaps it was this Kenneth Arrow fellow in 1972, from Harvard.
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/1972/arrow-lecture.pdf
At least his topic dealt with equilibrium, but energy is not mentioned in his talk. And then too I thought the energy economist was at Duke or some place like that.
Not much help, but at least Arrow mathematically describes some equilibria in market economies. At one point he's totally mystifying in stating: "Clearly, if all prices are multiplied
by the same positive constant, the budget constraint for households is really unchanged, and hence so are the consumer demands." That's not the kind of model I as a consumer would understand if his constant was +2. Perhaps he left out "relatively"?

Wayne Hamilton

I have another comment on the structure shown in your figure. Would you consider a different geometry?
When the Hopis dance, the katsinas lead a number of Hopi dancers around in a ring, clockwise. The katsinas move more authoritatively than the Hopis themselves, but the motions are similar. The drum and singing accompaniment come from a group of Hopis outside the circle. The progression is almost entirely clockwise, with an occasional back-step, but then recovery. The movement goes on for what seems to be hours. Depending on the dance, sometimes an ogre katsina dashes in from outside, but it gets chased away. During an interlude in some dances clowns and mudheads come in and pull pranks. The clowns also insult certain members of the audience, causing peals of laughter, and they also pass bread to deserving children in the crowd.
You can see I like a circular structure. I didn't like the vertical hierarchy in the government agency where I worked. I like circles.
The strategic element in your diagram could be in contact with and lead the coordination element. The coordination element could be in contact with and lead the operations element. That would give the strategists contact with the operations at one end and with the coordination at the other end. Each section would have an interface with each of the others. Do you think that structure might have some benefical aspects?

Wayne Hamilton

With a circular structure, some of the 'information' indicated in your diagram can come to the Strategic group directly from the Operations group. That would provide original data to be compared with that acquired through the Coordination channel.

George Mobus

Wayne,

I've been mulling over your latest comments and am still not quite sure of the meaning.

You say:
"The strategic element in your diagram could be in contact with and lead the coordination element. The coordination element could be in contact with and lead the operations element."

In the diagram, the thin arrows are supposed to represent just this idea. Operations data flows to the coordination level. Coordination data flows to the strategic level. At the same time strategic 'plans' flow downward to the coordination level (called trajectories in the diagram), while coordination 'plans' (regulatory) flow downward to the operations level. This seems consistent with organizational structures in business, government, and military where these terms are typically used.

In a series of posts that I am working on now, I will be refining the details of this scheme and showing examples from biological systems that demonstrate how hierarchical control systems are exactly the reason life is so stable and robust while still being able to adapt to local conditions (within reasonable limits). So this diagram will get expanded and I will be focusing in on each level for detail.

As for the last question re: information going directly from operations to strategic, I'm not sure what you have in mind. Part of the job of the coordination level is to track operational performance over time to report that to the strategic level. You know the old strengths and weaknesses assessment familiar to strategic planning folks. Example, tracking sales data for a product line year over year to get a sense of future sales potential - that kind of thing. I don't know what strategic management would do with daily or short-term operations data. In examples from living systems I will map out how the message flows segregate along the lines of what I show in the diagram.

But if you have something specific in mind, let me know.

George

Wayne Hamilton

Yes, George, I can see that your arrows can help 'make' the structure. Just think communication directly between strategy and operation would help insure that coordination PEOPLE would not become so self-important and specialized that they stop offering that kind of feedback to the stratagy PEOPLE.
Given that such feedbacks (some diodes might need to be removed) are operating, then the geometric structure concept becomes mute. The effective structure might very well exactly duplicate the spherical one represented by our Earth! Moreover, the parts of your three elements might well be physically widely distributed over the surface of the globe, and the arrows might well be represented by the Ethernet connections.
I look forward to your next post on process. (the above is a rewrite of one I did a minute ago that evaporated into said Ethernet unsent)

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