How Does the World Work?


  • See the About page for a description of the subjects of interest covered in this blog.

Series Indexes

Global Issues Blogroll

Blog powered by Typepad

Comment Policy

  • Comments
    Comments are open and welcome as long as they are not offensive or hateful. Also this site is commercial free so any comments that are offensive or promotional will be removed. Good questions are always welcome!

« Eating Spam | Main | What Might the Dynamics of Net Energy Per Capita Look Like? »

August 20, 2013

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Oliver

@George - I was lost for words after reading this astonishingly clear piece. It's one of those rare moments when it's perfectly justifiable to sign off the argument with Q.E.D.

Regarding the one-trick pony of capitalism, I've felt a fish out of water for as long as I can remember, and I do wonder how many among the seven billion have deliberately shunned excessive profit-taking as a life goal. If the number was known, we could feel more confident that there's a quorum of seed corn lurking in Homo calidus for an eventual new speciation favoring cooperation.

In the meantime, the puzzle is what to do with our remaining years. As you rightly say, nothing can be done to change the outcome of unbridled profiteering. But just existing merely seems to condone the biocide that's going on apace. I've heard people saying that we may as well enjoy the ride - but this brings to mind the last moments of Dr Strangelove!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlSQAZEp3PA

One good thing: I can finally park the ages-old burning question of what is the 'point' of living. I'm at peace with the conclusion that there is no point, in any meaningful sense.

Many thanks for taking the trouble to share your conclusions.

Brian M

@Oliver - I disagree that there is no point in living in any meaningful sense. However, I suppose it depends on what kind of "point" you are trying to make. If you are talking about changing human nature, then you're right, it's pointless. Human nature will not change, en masse, over any time frame meaningful to individual humans. Ditto human behavior, absent present, in-your-face, existential crisis.

On the other hand, if you are talking about individuals and their lives, then I think there is a point. Any number actually. I think you can consciously work towards being wiser. I think you can actively work towards treating those around you as well as possible. I think you can work towards enjoying life and those around you as much as possible, while still minimizing your own negative short and long term impacts on the world. And so on.

Will any of this change human nature or human behavior on a larger scale? Nope. Will it prevent the bottleneck and impacts that George and others have described so well? Nope. But that doesn't make it pointless.

Just one man's opinion.

peakaustria

made a small translation into german...until the jevons paradoxon. the rest is made by a mashine:
http://peakaustria.blogspot.co.at/2013/08/entweder-die-gewinne-gehen-oder-wir.html

Molly

1. It really doesn't require much sapience to understand that infinite growth in a finite system is a logical impossibility, and

2. After reading Psychopath Test by Ronson, I'm convinced that there's a mental "hardwiring" that is controlling the political and corporate leadership which is insistently leading the Great Unwashed down the path of self-destruction.

K-Dog

The problem is not with profits the problem is with how profits are defined. Were profits to account for all externalities; were sapience fully developed, there would be no problem with profits. Externalities would be considered. Capitalism and corporatism revolve around the taking of the dollar, nothing else is taken into account. The not taking into account the 'else' that is ignored is the problem.

I agree with your dichotomy of clever Vs. wise, calidus Vs. sapiens. We are afflicted with a crippled rash wisdom which fully engages mental faculties but then stop thinking activity the instant a technical solution is perceived as the answer to any problem under consideration.

This is why money is called the 'root of all evil'. A cliche that often masquerades and is misperceived as deep thinking. There is some knowledge in the cliche, it's just not so deep as to assume a religious significance.

Money engages our automatic tendency to stop thinking as soon as a problem is solved. It encourages high efficient technical solutions at the expense of considering any but immediate and obvious negative consequences of a technical solution. If a technical solution is not immediately perceived as toxic its novelty will always make it better than sliced bread. From an evolutionary point of view being stubborn and thick headed and in a rush to move on to the next problem had advantages.

Education and wisdom overcomes, but particular attitudes can derail the acquisition of wisdom. Not everbody makes it. If it takes all kinds or not as a society we sure got em all. Consequently we might actually be OK as a species but have totally allowed the wrong people to run the show.

We are what appears to be a spectacular failure but I can't go with the emerging zeitgeist of:

"absolutely nothing can be done at this juncture to mitigate these problems. And even if it could no one with the ability to make a difference will endeavor to do so"

This is getting to be a popular point of view and not limited to the wise. In fact it has just begun infecting the wise. Certain forces are actively encouraging its adoption (not you).

Fight the infection because:

The problem we face is that – in a totally inclusive sweep from Los Angeles via London to Madrid and Athens – we have an abject failure of political opposition alongside apathetic citizenry.

And from the same article:

"Overall, my feeling is that it is in the nature of a few in our species – the core obsessive hunter gatherers – to be greedy, ruthless and selfish, always pushing on too hard without thinking of the consequences. But then, when the chickens come home to roost, to bribe, cheat, deceive – and eventually deny the reality of their stupidity."

Its not true that nothing can be done at this juncture to mitigate problems. I share your frustration but as long as we can make another smile were mitigating.

K-Dog

K-Dog

Reading your 'Sapience', I thought you might enjoy this.

From the novel 'We' by E. Zamiatin

Fancy

It is a worm that gnaws black wrinkles on one's forehead. It is a fever that drives one to run further and further , even though "further" may begin where happiness ends. It is the last barricade on our road to happiness.

Rejoice! This Barricade has been blasted at last! The road is open!
The latest discovery of our State science is that there is a center for fancy-- a miserable little nervous knot in the lower region of the frontal lobe of the brain. Triple treatment of this knot with X-rays will cure you of your fancy."

A duplicate post because the Google account Typepad signed me in as was not my Google account. Strange happenings, I hope it is not X-rays.-- K-Dog :)

Oliver

@ K-Dog - It would be more accurate if you said, "In my opinion it's not true that nothing can be done." You are dealing in obligatory hope, not verifiable fact, when you infer that the core problem is the failure of political opposition and apathetic citizens. Ask yourself: Why has opposition failed? Why are citizens apathetic? The answers lead us to the realization that lack of sapience is the cause, not some perceived moral failure that could be countered in some magical way. IMHO.

@Brian M - Thanks for commenting and I appreciate your viewpoint that individuals' lives aren't pointless if they work on wizing up, help others where possible and enjoy life with care for the biosphere, etc. But this doesn't change my own view, having in my own way conducted myself along the lines you suggest and yet still finding myself an outcast in a world that is overwhelmingly bestial and survivalist (in the Darwinian sense). I may have made some minor impact along the way, but the waves keep crashing over my sandcastles and wiping clean any sign of my passing through this place. This sounds depressing but I actually feel freed of existential angst, which afflicts many humans and is an entire waste of energy.

Cantab

Friends of mine from university became very wealthy indeed in the City of London and Wall Street, from scratch.

Being a total drop-out myself, (I'm a lowly craftsman)I've taken great pleasure in examining the way their minds work while their careers have progressed.

Unlike many who criticize the rich from the outside, I have the advantage of studying them while just having social drinks and so on (even better when we get drunk, then the beans -the ambitions, the fears,- are really spilled!)

Despite being highly educated,unostentatious, types,they tend to reveal in their unguarded moments an almost infantile delight in profits, real or prospective, which is not in accord with the mental sophistication they show otherwise: most notably, they shy away from considering wider implications of their actions once the profit opportunity has been identified. They will admit to 'enjoying the game', and also to being remunerated far beyond their personal deserts.

Their fear of loss is equally unsophisticated and childish, and their desire for more - beyond all personal or family need - is unlimited.

People of lesser intellect, and wealth are, I find, much more likely to be philosphical about loss and gain: to my friends, it's a catastrophe.

Of course, one comes across a lot of crude and naked greed in the lower classes,too - most are aware however that the 'golden prizes' will never be theirs,and so by default they become better people; but to study it in the mentally sophisticated is highly rewarding. Lack of self-knowledge, above all, is what comes to mind.

We are indeed, Mr Mobus, in the wrong hands.

But don't blame the species as a whole folks! And no need to be grim-faced:if the Titanic is going down ,one can at least play a charming tune on one's instrument, to appease fears and beguile the wait.....and maybe even create some joy?

justnobody

Maybe human are just stupid and life is chaotic and random. This essay is just a bunch of useless worlds

K-Dog

K-Dog - It would be more accurate if you said, "In my opinion it's not true that nothing can be done." You are dealing in obligatory hope, not verifiable fact

No, I can't agree. It is not my opinion. There are a myriad of futures which lie before us, an infinity of futures and that is a mathematical fact. Some futures have more pain and suffering in them than others and the specific future that comes to pass we most definitely do have an influence over.

It would be extreme hubris to say we can choose our future. Politicians claim that all the time, they lie. But to deny that humans influence the future is plain wrong. Humans have done an excellent job ruining the environment so far, sad proof, but proof.

One problem with thinking is that we arbitrarily make binary distinctions and classify when we should not. Without training a person has extreme difficulty suspending judgement. But then why should they, they know no better.

I agree with you that the human race has insufficient sapience but there are other factors at play and concentrating over-much on the sapience aspect reflects despair.

To say that "absolutely nothing can be done" is a message of despair and false.

I am aware of the difference between obligatory hope and verifiable fact. The verifiable fact is wise people can influence outcomes and if even a tiny mote of pain and suffering can be eliminated from the wasteland of hurt then success has been realized. An outcome has been altered however small the change may be.

An issue perhaps is that you do not see the outcome being influenced in any way you personally see meaningful.

But:

“Whoever makes two ears of corn, or two blades of grass to grow where only one grew before, deserves better of mankind, and does more essential service to his country than the whole race of politicians put together”

Jonathan Swift

George Mobus

@Oliver,

The concept of a "point" to living is interesting. The word sort of implies (at least to me) a greater purpose, and there is also implied a very personal aspect. So in a sense I would have to agree with that observation. OTOH: is there a purpose to life itself? Or, rather, a point to evolution. In my reading of evolution I have surmised that there is, at least a trajectory. And to me that does imply a kind of greater purpose, not in the religious sense, but in the sense of just how the universe works.

As for the individual aspect of a "point", I think Brian M. is on to something.

---------------------------------------
@Peakaustria,

Thanks. Hope it strikes a nerve in Austria (I had a wonderful time touring Austria a few years ago. Learned to love espresso, Vienna style.)

-----------------------------------------
@Molly,

You are right, of course. It doesn't take sapience to grok the impossibility of infinite growth. But I think it does require sapience to not ignore it! Thanks for the tip on Ronson. Will try to check it out when my book is done!

--------------------------------------
@K-dog,

The actual phrase is: "For the LOVE of money is the root of all kinds of evil...", 1 Timothy 6:10.

And I think there is wisdom in that statement. Money is not the problem, it is a useful tool for communicating value and energy usage. The problem is when people lose sight of its real role and pursue it as wealth in and of itself.

Consider:

Consequently we might actually be OK as a species but have totally allowed the wrong people to run the show.

If we were really FIT (OK) as a species would we be letting the wrong people run the show?

Its not true that nothing can be done at this juncture to mitigate problems.

I would be more than happy to change my opinion if this can be shown to be true. The evidence I see and the magnitude of the predicament lead me to my conclusion (but always tentative!)

------------------------------------
@Cantab,

I didn't mean to imply it is a matter of "blame" of the species. Our human condition is simply what it is because of the way evolution works. When I rail against TPTB it is more a matter of reporting on the phenomena as evidence of the weak sapience in the species. Ultimately I suppose I think of my message as a signal to those out there who are not so weak (in sapience) to be prepared. Or something to that effect.

-------------------------------------
@Justnobody,

Perhaps you are right. Please feel free to ignore my future posts!

------------------------------------
@K-dog again,

To say that "absolutely nothing can be done" is a message of despair and false.

I do not feel despair. When I say nothing can be done, I mean in the sense of solving the problems such that "humanity" is effectively spared a truly horrific future (the bottleneck). And I mean that there is nothing that even a coalition of world leaders could do. Drastic climate change is baked in the cake and even if we were to stop emitting carbon today, the world will warm another one and a half degree C or so. And you know that such a cutoff is not going to happen.The climate change we expect from this will have multiple ill effects on so many fronts. And just as we will need massive amounts of energy to adapt to those changes, guess what? We won't be able to afford getting the fossil fuels out of the ground.

There might very well be individual actions that will help someone somewhere. For my part I share my thoughts on sapience and evolution in hope that they will motivate some folk to take action in preparation. I do expect some seed of higher sapient people to succeed in getting through the bottleneck.

Insofar as a general statement about it being true that there are multiple possible futures (and that it is mathematically proven) is vacuous. It carries no predictive or causal power. Moreover, your statement is likely motivated by your own belief about what kind of future will obtain and I suspect you see that possibility different from what I have outlined. Well I hope you are right, but when we are talking about predicting what kinds of scenarios will spin, we should always condition it with uncertainties and not try to make it sound certain by recourse to a claim of mathematical proof. IMO.

------------------------------------
For All,

Some of you may be interested in reading the special section of Science, 2 Aug. 2013 on "Natural Systems in Climate Change". There are several good summaries of the science on CC as well as discussions of models of response by natural systems (meaning biosystems) that are eye opening. For those who have thought CC won't be as bad as some of us have conjectured, well the news isn't good. But for those who see the impacts of CC as wiping out all life you may be pleasantly surprised. There are still many uncertainties about sensitivities of these systems (e.g. ocean surface communities) to temperature and other related factors. Nevertheless the biogeological records of prior die-offs and temperature extremes do not portend a Venus scenario, as some writers have suggested. We'll just have to see what happens!

George

justnobody

Keep writing and putting words together like if it really matter and make a difference.

For example you are saying:

The point is that the rule for life on Earth has been an elaborate set of checks and balances that help maintain the biosphere in a sometimes wildly fluctuating, but generally stationary steady-state.

Life has no rule. What point ?
We don't know what life is, but yet we pretend that we know. We know nothing about the outer space and yet we believe that we know what life is.

You write the same useless stuff as other do. You pretend that you know, but you don't know nothing.

Typical pseudo intellectual bullsh??it that has no real use.

Now I will stop reading you.

Oliver

@justnobody - Nobody is forcing you to visit this blog. It's a forum for serious mature discussion of humane issues. If something upsets you or scares you about the content, why not ask questions or express your measured response or counter-arguments? Merely insulting Professor Mobus and the rest of us visitors is rather primitive. Freedom of speech comes with respect for all parties in a debate.

justnobody


Nobody is forcing you to visit this blog. It's a forum for serious mature discussion of humane issues.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. Thank you. You made my day. You made my laugh.
Please keep the jokes coming.

George Mobus

@justnobody

I have banned only one other person because of uncivil discourse. Anymore comments like this and I will have to ban you as well.

Reverse Engineer

"Homo sapiens should be called Homo calidus, “man the clever” and definitely not “man the wise.” "-GM

Personally, I thought "Homo Stupidus" was the right taxonomy. :)

Final part of Ugo Bardi's Cassandra Podcasts now UP on Diner Podcasts. Don't miss it!

http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/08/10/dead-cat-bouncing/

Coming Soon to a Laptop near you, the Doomier side of Nicole Foss, Stoneleigh of The Automatic Earth.

RE

Bonce

Hi George. Again, I agree with most of this except for the emphasis on sapience being the determining factor and thus the conclusion. I suggest that our sapience is essentially adequate for the task while sociopolitical struggle is the determining factor and that we should focus on the latter with an eye on the former.

How do we predict the possible outcomes? What does a model of sapience indicate?

It is self-evident (to us here) that our species sapience (as a component of a system) has not provided a solution thus far and that the future seems bleaker than ever before. It would be a hasty generalisation to conclude from this alone that we are doomed. I assume your conclusion (that we are doomed as a species) is an extrapolation of the qualities of sapience that you have modelled - that you apply your model of sapience to a model of sociopolitical process (and circumstantial factors: technology, etc.). Have I got this right?

A source of disagreement:

Put simply, there is, in my opinion, no institution or group of people who (have the power/effectiveness and) can or would make the effort to change anything that might make even a modicum of difference.

So an important part of this equation would be the model of sociopolitical structures and processes, with a focus on how they change and how they can be stable and collectively beneficial. From the Remember comments you said:
But the argument is precisely that you cannot have an effective sociopolitical structure until there is adequate sapience/wisdom in the agents (people) who construct it.

So we might agree that a pivotal question is: what is limiting effect of human wisdom in practice? i.e. what are the sociopolitical possibilities? (Can "power/effectiveness" be gained but those who seek cooperativity?) Again this seems to depend on how we model sociopolitics (consistent with a model of limited sapience, but not defined by the sapience model).

As to the circumstantial factors (technology, the timescale and range of climate change, etc), I don't think this is the source of disagreement.

My comments in the Remember were questioning the explanatory power of the limited 'cleverness' of leaders in explaining current (and past) world events and realities. (I used the word 'wisdom' in the wrong context, which didn't help.) You cleared up some of this for me by acknowledging that there is a significant role played by self-interested agendas. I would position the role of self-interested power structures as the main feature of sociopolitics. I would still question any 'lack of cleverness' paradigm in understanding and explaining sociopolitical realities - this crops up but is difficult to disentangle from discussion of 'wisdom/sapience'. (Is this informing the sociopolitical model?)

If I can introduce a simplistic hypothetical example...

An isolated village of 100 humans. If a few of those villagers were particularly clever and selfish, they, by various mechanisms, might gain power and wealth advantage over the other villagers. If the other villagers recognise this, they would tend to resent this and oppose them. Thus the rulers (leaders with privilege) must use their cleverness and gained advantages (weapons, whatever) to maintain their privilege. Call the leaders 'rulers A'; 'scenario A'; if the scenario persists, 'outcome A'.

If the villagers remove their 'rulers A' and choose new leaders (using their experience of the previous regime to guide their choice), then we have a village led by 'leaders B'. If these new leaders become corrupt over time then we return to an instance of type 'A'. While the leaders and villagers function for collective benefit, call them 'leaders B'; 'scenario B'; and if the scenario persists 'outcome B'.

I suggest that human civilisation has been essentially 'scenario A' with transient glimpses of 'scenario B' . What makes 'outcome B' an impossibility?
(I would say more but don't want to post too much at a time.)

Bonce

@K-Dog
I favour your angle:

...If it takes all kinds or not as a society we sure got em all. Consequently we might actually be OK as a species but have totally allowed the wrong people to run the show.
I think this relates to my 'scenario A'. I would add a qualifier, that if the power structure is corrupting (maintains privilege), then the leaders need not be the most ruthless and selfish for the structure to fail us - the structure needs to be right.


@Oliver (to K-dog)

"...it's not true that nothing can be done." You are dealing in obligatory hope, not verifiable fact...
As I understand the logic, the assertion is "we are doomed and nothing can be done", so the burden of proof is on those making that claim (and I've not read a clear version yet). There is no burden of proof to say: we may or may not be doomed and therefore should try.


@Cantab
Your story of financial trader friends is interesting. Does their culture reflect their innate qualities? or are they people who happen to enter into a pre-existing system? (financial capitalism creates their culture rather than the traders themselves)


@George (to Oliver)

...there is nothing that even a coalition of world leaders could do.
If you and I were the world leaders, I'm sure we could sort it out in the medium and long term. In my view, the current effective 'world leaders' aren't motivated to do anything yet because the powers that guide them do not fear their own position (they predict crises for the masses, not themselves).

I would be more than happy to change my opinion if this can be shown to be true. The evidence I see and the magnitude of the predicament lead me to my conclusion (but always tentative!)
Isn't the burden of proof the other way round here? More hopefully, if the 'doomed' conclusion is tentative, then shouldn't a tentative chance of survival trump any defeatism?

I once tried to probabilistically calculate the moral worth of each individual alive now (in trying to secure beneficial survival) - it made a pretty maths expression. Each of our attempts to secure a better future has more value than we can imagine (magnitudes more than trillions of lives, effectively exponential).

(sorry to butt in again, I might misinterpret the context a bit...)

Insofar as a general statement about it being true that there are multiple possible futures (and that it is mathematically proven) is vacuous. It carries no predictive or causal power.
we could take "there are many possibilities" to be a truism to remind ourselves that any prediction of a complex system might be wrong.
...when we are talking about predicting what kinds of scenarios will spin, we should always condition it with uncertainties and not try to make it sound certain by recourse to a claim of mathematical proof...
I don't understand how the claim that we are doomed can be so strong, considering all the uncertainties in the models and methods for the prediction of a supremely complex system.

Oliver

@Bonce - Apologies but I find your line of thinking quite hard to follow and understand, but I have a simple question to ask you, in response to your "outcome A" and "outcome B" suppositions.

Why do you think the world has always run on scenario A, rather than scenario B?

You discuss scenario B as if it's a real option in the real world, but I see no evidence from history or the present day that gives me any reason to suppose that scenario B will ever become a reality. You may hope it can come to be, or wish it to happen, but while (of course) it's not impossible in theory, are you really sure in your mind that it's attainable, beyond wishful or magical thinking?

Bonce

@Oliver, thanks for looking at my A/B scenario

Why do you think the world has always run on scenario A, rather than scenario B?
To be specific, I said essentially 'scenario A' with transient glimpses of 'scenario B'. But yes, I characterise 'A' as having a minority class with most of the wealth and power, and, if we look at history, this is pretty much always the case.

We are taught a gentleman's history where we are told how 'Good King Thomas' valiantly tried his best to lead his country. But if we are critical (we doubt and question), then we might find evidence that King Thomas was ruthlessly pursuing his own self-interest (bumping off rivals, killing thousands in wars for profit, making peasants die of starvation by taking common land, agreeing to meet rebels and then boiling them in oil, etc.). We then have two theories: King Thomas was trying to do his best but making the odd mistake; or King Thomas was essentially pursuing ruthless self-interest. We should develop the theory that is better at explaining the events. Add to this the difficulty in interpreting the record of events (nobody wrote down anything critical of King Thomas).

My question would be, which period of history does not match the general nature of King Thomas? I would say most of it (with only transient glimpses of cooperative systems).

You discuss scenario B as if it's a real option in the real world, but I see no evidence from history or the present day that gives me any reason to suppose that scenario B will ever become a reality.
Firtly, just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't (to think otherwise is just generalisation). Circumstances are constantly changing (to say the least). And if we ever attain a proper cooperative system, then that's it - eutopia - done and dusted ('the end of history' as Fukuyama would pretend).

To consider what is attainable we first need to critically consider how things are the way they are. If we can model past and present effectively, then that will guide us as to what is possible and how to go about changing things.

The world is facing crises that will ruin the lives of billions. Things aren't too good for the majority of the billions alive now. In my view, a small minority control the vast majority of effective wealth (productive captial) and power (bombs and influence). That can change if the majority struggle against the existing structure. (You might correctly guess from this that I'm against population reduction for political reasons as well as practical morality.)

I'm trying to set out an alternative sociopolitical paradigm (way of looking at how the world works), which isn't easy. I'd best leave it there for now.

You may hope it can come to be, or wish it to happen, but while (of course) it's not impossible in theory, are you really sure in your mind that it's attainable, beyond wishful or magical thinking?
Yes, I'm sure it's possible without magic. I just want to reiterate the 'burden of proof' thing. Our starting point for an open question or complex prediction is 'anything is possible'. We can then start reducing the possibilities by reasoning why certain outcomes are effectively impossible. What we are left with is a list of known possibilities. So, yes, I think that it is possible because I've not been convinced that it isn't.

And there's a bottom-line: if we are the last chance for intelligent life to survive on this planet, then our actions decide whether future life exists or not. That's at least: 5 billion years of 5 billions of lives (if we stay homo sapiens and don't evolve or propagate). So, if our chance is one in a million, and one billion of us try to save the world, then each of us is responsible for 5b*5b/100 divided by 1m*1b = 250 million long happy lifetimes. Or not.

@George Sorry to post so much on your blog.

The comments to this entry are closed.