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« Either Profits Go or We Go | Main | Book Update - Phase One Complete! »

September 01, 2013

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michael connolly

You are spot on net energy is the rock on which industrial civilization will break. Limits to Growth come within a hair of nailing it in 1972, if they had modeled energy sepertely and included a function for net energy it would have been accounted for everything except our dilusions. Tainter also came very close with what amounts to the law of deminishing returns in his book "The decline of complex socities". I think you can still get a coy of "world 3" the model they used for the limits to growth projections, it might be worth a look to see if its possible to modify the energy aspect of the programme to see what effect net energy would have on thier standard run. Keep up the good work your a light in a very dark room

St. Roy

GM

NEPC is the Important metric. Great post. I think TOD should have morphed into the Net Energy Report (NER) and it would attracted the kind on content providers to have maintained their first mover advantage on the subject of peak oil.

Ken Barrows

If the net energy data were to prove you wrong, they'd already be available. You know you're right, Mr. Mobus.

Joe Clarkson

Although I agree with the gist of your post, the graph would be more convincing if the population curve were not so unrealistic. World population in 1800 was about 1 billion, not the 2 billion shown. World population was close to 2 billion when I was born in 1948, not 3 billion. World population is now 7 billion, but your curve doesn't reach that level until about 2040.

According to the World Bank, world gross energy per capita is still increasing, but that admittedly says nothing about net energy. I suspect that the recent run up in energy prices is linked to the decline in the net energy available from recent marginal energy production.

If the parameters your chart displays were known with enough accuracy, it would be possible to predict when NEPC would fall below the level needed to support the human population. We would then know when the die-off would begin and something about its rate. That would be interesting and important information.

Reverse Engineer

I think a still more intriguing application of this model would be to Map it on a 3-D Globe, and then take each country at snapshots in time of population and energy consumption. A Circle would represent per capita energy consumption size, the color of the circle the population size. Then you run the whole model over time to visualize how the bubbles correspond to economic activity, wars, depressions etc. The 3D model used to show current Earthquakes globally could be adapted for this.

http://www.wolton.net/quake.html

The main issue I see as problematic is getting the data to plug in to the model, particularly historical data prior to the industrial era.

Let's chat it up at the Collapse Cafe!

http://collapsecafe.com

RE

Robin Datta

Now yer cookin'!

Some possibly pertinent links:

Gail Tverberg (Gail the Actuary)'s Blog "Our Finite World":
World Energy Consumption Since 1820 in Charts March 12, 2012

Per capita energy consumption various countries

world per capita energy consumption was increasing until the late 70s, hitting a peak in 1977. There was a fairly long period until about 2000 where per-capita energy consumption was on a plateau.

Evidence that Oil Limits are Leading to Declining Economic Growth:
July 13, 2012

World Oil Supply Growth vs Growth in World GDP

Robin Datta

Evidence that Oil Limits are Leading to Declining Economic Growth:
July 13, 2012

George Mobus

Michael, St. Roy, Ken,

Thanks for the comments.

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Joe,

You are right about the graphs. This is a quick-and-dirty model that did not attempt to be that realistic wrt dates. What I was interested in (and had not seen developed anywhere else) was the dynamics from coupling population and energy. A better approach would be to develop a model based on real data. I would be interested in talking to anyone who would like to pursue this.

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RE,

Will try to make it. Not sure what else could be done with this quicky global-scale model. Since I am convinced that the collapse is baked into the cake, the purpose of such models is not to predict anything per se, but just satisfy scientific curiosity! Pose a research question and we'll see what models are needed to find answers.

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Robin,

Thanks for the links. Gail and I see things pretty much eye-to-eye. She is using consumption of raw energy data as a proxy for exergy but I prefer to subtract out the exergy used to get new exergy just to be clear.


George

Joe Clarkson

Chris Nelder's latest post at smartplanet.com, The 21st Century Population Crash, is a good one on this topic.

Reverse Engineer

"RE,

Will try to make it. Not sure what else could be done with this quicky global-scale model. Since I am convinced that the collapse is baked into the cake, the purpose of such models is not to predict anything per se, but just satisfy scientific curiosity! Pose a research question and we'll see what models are needed to find answers."-GM

The Cafe is rather Haphazard at the moment, so you just gotta check in to see if it is up or not. I don't have a schedule for it yet.

I agree of course that the model building is mostly an academic exercise, it's not going to change any outcomes on a global scale, that is for sure.

However, it might have some Predictive Value which could help individuals prepare better.

Depending how good your data is on the historical level, you might be able to pinpoint "Tipping Points" on the energy level for a given society which lead to greater social breakdown. You might then be able to do a better extrapolation for when individual countries will fall into disorder, and when global disorder will become dominant.

The hard part is picking data that is available that correlates well to energy availability in a given society.

For Rome, I am wondering if using the percentage of PMs present in the Coinage represents a measure of available energy in the society of that time?

RE

George Mobus

@Joe,

Couldn't find the article. Link?

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@RE,

My modeling is theory-driven rather than data-driven. But it would be nice to have the right kind of data to check results.

George

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